Podcast audio transcript

[0:00] Music. 

[0:05] Welcome back to the drupal Easy Podcast. This is season 16 episode number one. 
As always, it's great to be back and we have a great set of episodes planned for the next few weeks. 
The theme of season 16 is making drupal development easier to start us off in today's episode. 
We'll be talking with drupal Easy Podcast originals, Andrew Riley and Ryan Price about all of our favorite drupal things that we want for Christmas before we get to that interview. 
Let me tell you a little bit about drupal Easy's long form professional module development course. 
Now this course encompasses 90 hours of training over 15 weeks where we meet twice a week. 
We learned developer tools like P HPC SPHP, Stan Xdebug, all while using the VS code of PHP storm ID ES and Lando or D DEV. 
Once we start talking about drupal development, we'll be developing custom plugins, custom services, dependency injection using the Q API, the batch API and lots and lots of object oriented PHP coding. 
We'll also be covering caching, custom drush commands and writing plenty of PHP unit tests all throughout the course. 
The next semester begins January 30th check it out at drupal easy.com/p MD. 

[1:24] Music. 

[1:29] Welcome back to the drupal Easy Podcast. Andrew and Ryan, it's been a beat since we've last had either of you on a long time. 
I just took a nap. It's been like a day. Your beard looks fantastic, by the way, it's like 7 ft long at this time, huh? 
So, for those of you who aren't aware, uh, myself and Andrew and Ryan were the founders, the originators, the, the three original hosts of the drupal Easy Podcast. 
So many years ago, I should have put a lot of them. 
Is this is this season 16 because this is the 16th year of the podcast. 

[2:13] Well, I start when I switched the format to seasons, which was uh season 14. 
That was indeed the 14th year of the podcast, I believe. 
But I do two seasons a year. So it's not gonna keep up with the year. 
So I believe this might be the 15th. 
You're gonna have to switch the semantic versioning because this is gonna hurt my brain otherwise. 
No, no, no, we do. You know, we do two seasons a year each of six episodes and here we are in season 16 or at least come up with like a, you know, Ubuntu style naming convention. 
Like this one will be the, uh, the, the Wild Wombat edition. 
Oh, yes. Right. Right. And all, after some, I got to pick a theme for, you know, in addition to picking a theme for each season. 
Now, I have to pick a theme to name all of the seasons. Right. 
Totally. Do, do like, you know, Stanley style, everything has to be alliterative, obviously, obviously. 
All right. Well, let's get into it because this is our holiday episode where we are going to make our picks of our favorite things, uh about drupal or really all we want for drupal Christmas. 
So things that we would like drupal to have I asked both of you to come up with a list of three items that were achievable, not super pie in the sky. 
You know, I would like drupal to make me a sandwich type of thing. 

[3:39] And I believe we've achieved that goal because I can see everyone's answers in a rundown. 
But let's, let's get going first. We'll start with you. Andrew. 
So reintroduce yourself. 
First of all, what do you do? Who are you and then give us one of your three things. 
So I'm Andrew Riley. I'm a manager over at Red Hat and uh we actually have a pretty large drupal department, so we're pretty big drupal shop despite not being a shop and I've been using drupal for a long time. 
Although, you know, recently I haven't been as much hands on keyboard but still have multiple teams working on it and maintaining modules. 
So I get to kind of, you know, look into the drupal world every so often. 
Alright. So what is your first wish for drupal Christmas? 

[4:32] Ok. We, we'll skip over the whole like world peace thing and all that kind of stuff. 
I would love a long term support release of drupal. 
Now, you might be thinking drupal seven, is that for right now? 
But we're gonna need another drupal seven eventually that the annual, you know, 8 to 9 to 10 is getting to be a little bit grinding now that we're, I don't know, three ish years in, it's been actually different than that, but I'll say three years in and it gets kind of exhausting after a while. 
Well, I think it's actually every two years that we're getting a major, it seems like it does seem like it's, it's a lot faster than that. So. 
It sounds like from a an organizational standpoint to have a long. 

[5:20] Term support release of drupal would, you know, save money is that is, you know, save money, save developer time. 
Like what's the, what's the, what's the reason behind that way? 
Yeah, save money, save, save developer time. And I mean, if you have a a site that doesn't have a lot of modifications and you're just, you know, using off the shelf modules and that type of thing, it's not a lot of work, but it's still, I would say slightly worrisome, you know, even if you're a simple site, but you know, you count on some contrib module and they don't upgrade. 
If you don't have technical chops, you now have a deadline slowly moving towards you. 
And if that module doesn't go to the next version, you're gonna have to figure something out. 
So what happens when there's a dependency that is end of life while you know, during this long term support? 
Like give me an example of the dependency. 
So, so a symphony component, for example, right? So, so I think the the thing that Andrew is asking for is predictability. 

[6:21] But if you use the word stability, then you have to start thinking about outside projects that drupal depends on. Right. 
What if left pad gets deprecated? Then what do we do? 
Yeah. And it, it's hard with it all interconnected and maybe even if it was just security releases, kind of like how we've done with D seven over the past 34 years that, you know, it just gets security updates but there's gotta be something because, you know, the average person I don't think is really upgrading and we see that with the number of D seven sites that still exist out there. 

[6:56] Ryan, I feel like this wish kind of dovetails nicely with one of your wishes as well. So why don't you reintroduce yourself and? 
Give us one of your wishes. So, yeah, my name is Ryan Price and I have been working on drupal for quite a while. 
Drupal 4.6 was my first drupal and Mike and Andrew were actually at my very first drupal meet up a long, long time ago. 
And right now I am in between things. I am transitioning to be announced. 

[7:28] I I'm pretty sure I know what's happening but it's not official yet. 
So mysterious, probably going to be working on a US government website near you. 
That's the shortest way I could say it. All right. Fantastic. 
I've, I've worked with also the, the drupal Association on some projects recently. 
Um the Discover drupal program that Mike also works on and helped out um with some of those efforts. 
And in just the last month, I've also been doing a little bit of contribution to the backdrop drupal seven to backdrop upgrade project, which is interesting because it is like reusing some code from backup and migrate that Ronan um sort of like helped them port over to backdrop. 
So it's pretty interesting like going entering a time warp but also using like, you know, what I've learned in the last seven years or whatever since drupal seven has like, fallen off of my radar too, too much. Except for that we need to upgrade. 
But one thing that I've been noticing as I have been using drupal in the last couple of years is nobody releases a stable 1.0 for their module or a 2.0 or a whatever point. 
Oh, thing, everything stuck in beta or alpha or DEV release. 

[8:51] And for one thing that means it gives no security team updates. 
They, they don't put the little stamp on it. 
For another thing. If you work on certain kinds of projects, they say no Dev leases, it's a policy set by whomever and I kind of support that policy. 
Like why would I want to use the DEV lease of something when the Dev lease is three years old? Why, why are you waiting? 
And I understand there's like reasons but why or if it's been out there for three years at least bump into 1.0 please people. 

[9:28] Yeah, that's the, that's the big question is, is why is it, you know, it's because it's not done in their head. 
But you know, in the maintainers head that they're, they're waiting to, you know, finish these features that they don't have bandwidth to work on or they're waiting till the issue queue is clear. 
There's no more bug reports like there's, it is baffling sometimes, especially with some of the, the projects that, as you said, go on and on and on for months and months, seven month long betas are longer. It's kind of silly. 
Yeah. One of one of my future wish list items has a potential solution. 
What can we? Oh, well, tell me to stop. 
Is there anything we can do to incentivize? Yes, I, I believe, I believe there's, there are a number of things and I think one is just simply rallying more person hours around some of these projects and increasing the the, you know, like onboarding ability for how we do contrib projects. 
I think getting git lab out there, getting like testable git lab um has been a good, you know, like bridge that can be built, but I don't know how much it's being leveraged yet. Gotcha. 
Right. Like we can create branches of things. We can create merge requests without having to be a maintainer, but you can still upload it in a sort of like history preserving fashion. 

[10:56] And then someone can come along and they can download your branch. 
But then also if they tag your branch to their composer file, maybe then you could potentially put in a patch that's gonna break their sight. 
So we need something that makes it a little bit easier to be like I'm forking this project. I'm taking over this project. 
Right on, on github. You can just say I'm creating a fork. 
This project seems just moving too slow for me. 
I'm gonna fix it for myself. You could, I think do that if it's just you using it, right? 
You could copy the, get anywhere you want. That's what GP L allows you to do. 
Provided that you pay attention to the licensing ability of, of a GP L but to the benefit of the rest of the community, it would be nice if there was a, sort of like low friction way of providing that service, whatever it happens to be. 
Let's move on because I have a feeling we're gonna be talking about this a little bit more with the, with the future pick. 

[11:59] So I'll start with my first pick, which is anyone who, who follows me on, on social media will kind of this will come as no surprise but a modernized drupal planet. 
I love drupal Planet. And there's probably a bunch of people who are listening, who have no idea what I'm talking about when I say drupal Planet. 
But if you go to drupal.org/planet, it is basically a news feed. 
A curated, it's not curated by article, it's curated by author by source, by source. Thank you. 
So the source has to be accepted into the newsfeed and on drupal.org/planet or you know, any article that's published by that source. 
I mean, a lot of times the source will, it won't be all articles by the source. 
It will be articles that are meant to go to drupal Planet will show up on drupal.org. 
I got into it and I think a lot of people um who have been in drupal a long time got into it just via RSS feeds. 
I still consume it via an RSS feed. 

[12:59] Uh, and I, I, I've never stopped really, you know, it's just part of, kind of my daily ritual as I go through, you know, in my news feed and any post that goes on drupal Planet, I will see almost every day pretty consistently. 
And I have found over the past 23 years, the quality of drupal Planet has gone way down. 
I think there's organizations that are just kind of spamming it maybe. 
Not even on purpose, low quality writing. And it's really to find the really good nuggets in there is becoming harder and harder. 
So I'd love to see a modernized drupal planet. 
There's discussions I I've been involved with on Slack about. 

[13:41] You know, making it something Federated and doing something with it where users can up or down vote stories. 
And then maybe there's a secondary feed that comes out of that. 
It's kind of like the, the double curated drupal planet list or drupal Planet feed. 
But that for me, I, I think it was a great resource. It still is a great resource for me to learn drupal. 
I read a great article today about a potential kind of an example of how a security exploit from drupal Seven could potentially have been exploited. 
And it was very technical but it was, it was really super interesting. 
So I'm, I'm constantly learning things from it, but I feel like not as many people are probably a because of exposure and b because just the signal to noise ratio isn't, isn't what it used to be, Andrew. 
Yeah, I agree. Um What going back, first of all, everyone if you don't know, rss, look it up, you should be using it. It should have a resurgence. 
I still do it, but I've noticed on the planet there's a lot more marketing, heavy posts and things I don't personally care about. 
So they should actually change it for me, but I'll allow it, I guess for the rest of the planet for you specifically, it shall be changed. Yeah. 
I mean, I have a really good plan for, for curating drupal Planet is just follow Mike on social media. 

[15:02] Yeah, there's your curator II, I have become more and more outspoken about, you know, stuff on drupal Planet lately just because it's, the more I get frustrated by it, the more I, you know, but, you know, the one thing and Ryan's probably seen this is, it makes me crazy when the author's name isn't listed on the article. 
Yeah, like, yeah or the date. Yeah, date date would be a real nice. 
Yeah, exactly. All right, Andrew number two. 
Ok. Next one is a better caching option for large scale sites in modern drupal. 
You know, in the past, we use things like mem cash. More modern is red is, you know, that type of thing to cash outside of the database for large sites because I know on one of the sites I manage, we tried the database option and it was like 21 gigs of cash in the. 

[15:55] So um but then mem cash, it's kind of gone the way of the dinosaur. 
Our reddi integration is flagging, it's having issues, it's not really that supported. 
So kind of what is a good option for a large scale site short of doing full page caching kind of on a server level is Alaska search still a thing because they have a key value store that you can use much like me cash, I believe, I don't know, but I don't know if it's still relevant. 
I haven't used Alaska search in a long time. 
So elastic search definitely still exists. It's an open source project. 
You can also buy hosting from the company that makes it right. 
What I was going to ask about is like if you were hosting with one of the, you know, bigger like cash providers like Akamai or something like that, a lot of those have objects, cash solutions now too. Right. 
Yeah, we're looking for something on premise for all the various different caches that drupal has. Right. 
Red Hat does things the Red Hat, you know, in house type of way, which I totally support. 
So I understand the question. 

[17:02] So, something that's lugg directly into drupal. Yeah. And can, we can have in our data center type deal? Right. Right. 
Yeah, that's a great question. I don't know. I don't work on a whole lot of, you know, super big sites so, or really any for that matter. So, I don't. 
But I would be curious to know like what folks are using. 
Yeah, I just, yeah, even just to find out what other sites are using would be kind of good because I'm not saying on drupal Planet. Come on planet. 

[17:28] All right, Ryan number two for you. Yeah, mine, like we kind of hinted at is a little bit dovetailing into one of the earlier notes I made, which is more funding for open source project maintainers. 
This is something that I've been involved with and then certain things were able to take the wind out of my personal sales, but other people picked up and, and run with it for a little while, including people like Gus Austin and Jonathan Gerhart and a few others is called the funding project. 
It's drupal.org project funding. And then we created an open collective group that you could donate to and some other spaces like that. 
The idea was the day that github announced the, the github sponsors are exactly what they call it. I think it, it's called sponsors. 
They introduced a format where you put a YAML file inside your project in a certain spot. 
And I said, we should totally have this on drupal.org. I created a project and I said, well, what's the like, easiest way to do this on drupal.org would be just put it on your project page as a field in the project. 

[18:34] I said, why not? Let's let's go ahead, let's create the same YAML format. 
If you just paste it into that field, it will do something. 
And beyond that, that's, that's my personal. Like this is a way we could help to solve this problem. 
It's not the only way to solve this problem, but creating more visibility for people that are looking for funding for their projects and then also more visibility for the people that are funding those projects. 
Like if, if you donate a million dollars to the Performing Arts Center, they put your name on the side of the building. 
There's a similar sort of uh you know, mechanism in, in open source that are, you know, donation supported projects or sponsor related projects where you can do similar things like that. 
There's some things that are missing from open collective specifically, which is like, what if it was when I was working at FFW? 
They donated X amount of time to the drupal Association for me to do some of those, you know, discover drupal projects that's not a donation as far as open collective is concerned. 
And their platform didn't really have an answer for it. 
So is there a way to have those contributions, you know, surfaced in a better way that has maybe your logo or the picture of your choice or the link of your choice attached to it? 

[19:50] Um Those things we're pretty sure would incentivize some of these people to donate or potentially donate into, let's say, a central fund which now you're creating bureaucracy. 
But potentially the idea of when I first created the funding was like, oh, what if we could get $10,000 in this fund? It's gonna make up a number. 
And then we say to all projects who have not had a 1.0 release, you can have $100 for creating the 1.0 release. 
I just made up those two numbers. 

[20:25] This would obviously have to have more oversight over it than just what came off the top of my head. 
But there's possibility of creating something that, you know, kicks the engine into gear a little bit more when it's needed. 
And hopefully you can save some of the funds for a rainy day for when it's really, really needed. 
Let's say that somebody's country gets invaded and now all of those developers are really trying to support something. 
Let's just pretend there's so many wrinkles to this. 
It's, it's a, it's a fraught, fraught subject matter. 
It's like a Sharpe this, this because there's, there's, there's the, the issue of like the mechanism of payment, right. 
There's that issue which you mentioned, there's visibility and, you know, it's visibility from the, you know, I want to give money to this. How do I do that or? 
Oh, look, I can give money to this project. I did not know that before. 
I think the other, maybe it, it might even be like the elephant in the room. 
Mixing metaphors here now is. 

[21:32] To me, it's almost like a paradigm shift has to be made between the folks who are using open source software and the folks that are building open source software, right? 
Because it's invisible to, to most people. 
I think that OK, I use drupal, but you know, drupal uses these, you know, 100 and 15 dependencies that are open source. 
And so even if I'm, you know, sponsoring a drupal event or I'm a, I'm a supporting member of the drupal Association. 

[22:05] There that, that money doesn't really trickle down to, you know, forget about like symphony developers, s symphony component developers, but even like drupal module developers. 
So there's this weird, you know, place where it's just not known that, you know, whoever is like maintaining the path auto module is not getting paid for that. 
Yeah, I mean, one really cool thing that happened this year at drupal Con if you didn't get to pay attention to, it was called pitchbook. 

[22:34] Where some folks raised money and there was a pitch competition and they said please give me money to build new functionality into the sort of like layout builder, right? 
Was one of the pitches that won. 
But there were lots of pitches that didn't get enough votes to get the funding that they asked for. 
But there are people there who have interesting projects that probably are of use to more than just the person who pitched that project. 
If there were a way to have those projects, you know, get more visibility, almost an incubator if you will. Yeah. 
All right, let's move on because I could, I could, this could be a whole podcast. 
Yeah, it could be a whole series of podcasts. Exactly. Yeah. 
So my second wish is more and I think this is a very low bar and it's probably already in the works. 
So I think this is one wish that will definitely come true in 2024. 
There's more marketing efforts like what the drupal Association recently organized at the giant 70,000 person Web Summit in Lisbon Portugal, where there was a drupal booth and it was spectacular looking, super modern looking. 
And, you know, it was, it was staffed by folks from the drupal Association and prominent European drupal. 

[24:00] And it was the goal of it was to basically let folks know that drupal is still here. 
It's still, it's modern, it's relevant and we are ready to do business. 
And I think that that's great because so often we are talking to ourselves in the drupal community. What's, there's a, there's a, There's a phrase for that. We're, yeah, we're an echo chamber where we need to be marketing outside of the community. 
Andrew. This is where you say we're an echo chamber. Echo echo. 

[24:36] So, yeah, I would like more of that. And actually just to just today, there was some discussion in the Florida channel about some event happening in Florida. 
I think after maybe January or February. And that's either in the past or the present, depending on when you're listening to this podcast, about this event, this, this C MS event and you know, discussion about, if you know anyone from the Florida area is interested in going and maybe we can collaborate and come up with some sort of similar thing to promote drupal while we're there. 
Could it be a little bit like Kevin's Box of recording things? 
There's like a community box of setting up the booth because some of those booth materials, they look real nice if you have them. 
But if you don't have them, then it looks kind of like paper plates and plastic cups. Exactly. 
Yeah, we're open source. Yeah. 

[25:30] Yeah. I don't know what the drupal Association has planned for you know, that booth, I, you know, I'm gonna assume that it's gonna show up at future events, hopefully sooner rather than later. 
But it would be great to have some type of, you know, traveling drupal box of. 

[25:47] You know, for, for other other events. 
And I would, I would add like having worked the booth at some of these events, that some people come up and they just want to hear the one minute pitch. 
So typing out the one minute pitch and putting it on to maybe even a, a handout that I can either read off of this handout. 
I could hand you the thing that has the information, right? 
And this past drupal Con in L, I think we were talking about Mars, the M and MS people. 
We're using drupal quite a bit. 

[26:23] Is that one of the ones they said. So some of those like recent success stories get highlighted, maybe it has to get reprinted once a year, that kind of thing, you know, obviously you could have the, the default things like stickers and whatnot. 
But the the ones that talk about the impact and talk about the achievements and talk about how this company sponsoring open source has created this new opportunity for everyone. 
Those are the ones that you can't do that with, you know, corporate messaging because all you can say is we help this customer succeed, not we help this customer succeed and therefore everyone else succeeds, which I think is the big benefit of open source and look from a bit more of a shallow standpoint. 
The eye candy of a really cool booth helps tremendously. 
I think, I mean, I'll put, I'll put the link to an article about the web summit Lisbon that I believe has a photo or two of the booth. 
And it's, it's spectacular. It's, you know, makes me, you know, makes me very proud to be part of the community to see stuff like that. 

[27:30] All right, Andrew back to you. Number 30, I don't even know how to bring this one up. It could just be a me problem. 
But have you ever worked on a really complex site that has translations, content moderation and scheduled publish? 
And you put those modules, you know, it's drupal, there's a module for everything and they just work together, you put them together and it utterly destroys your node revisions and the history of it and they start going crazy and you start losing things and things start breaking. 
Have you ever had that app? Is this something that you were working on literally hours ago today? Is that why? This is so? 
No, actually, I've been working on this for like 2.5 years. 

[28:11] I, I can, I can uh plus one this as well. Yeah. 
Yeah, because I mean, we have the entity system and it's been amazing. 
Don't get me wrong, but on some of the lower levels of the entity system, we're still having modules that do similar things basically fighting each other and that tends to cause problems. 
I'm wondering if I don't want to another system, but we definitely need to take a look at that system and how these modules tie into it to hopefully make them play nice together. 
Yeah. 11 thing I would add into this too is like content staging is something that not every site needs. 
But as if if, what people say about drupal is that it's becoming more enterprise friendly is true. 
There are a lot more enterprises that want to do content staging. 
So it's, there's a little bit of a self fulfilling prophecy there that if drupal was better at this, maybe some of the people that are leaving drupal wouldn't. 
Have to, or some of the people that are, you know, trying to create these, you know, slightly more complex workflows. 

[29:19] Especially when you have translation added in, there would, would have a better default answer. 
Or if you get to the, hey, I want to preview this on my headless site and I don't want to have to create like a separate content staging website or maybe I do. 
There's, there's room for innovation to happen here. 
Yeah, I think that's gonna be a big one and not only for enterprise stuff but for even smaller sites, you know, it's nice to be able to stage some of those things and look, especially if, you know, this isn't your, you know, 9 to 5 job. 
You know, sometimes you want to see how this is going to play out and you might not have that, you know, local development environment or a different staging environment. 
You know, sometimes you got to do it in production. Yeah. 11 client I worked with in the last year was a performing arts center and they, the day that their season goes on sale. 

[30:16] Almost every page on their website changes. 
So there's an example of on May 30th. 
You've got all the stuff from the last six months and on May 31st. 
Now you have all the stuff from the upcoming year that's we're all trying to promote between one day and the next. 
And that's a really good case for when does content staging matter because every one of the shows that they're trying to promote wants to come look at the site before it's ready before it's public to say. 
Yep. That represents my show correctly. Thank you for doing that and thank you for showing me the preview and it's a real web page instead of like a screenshot. Right. 
Yep. Definitely. What's your number three, Ryan? 

[31:01] Yeah, my number three is, it's, it's similar, similar theme, I think drum beating across my three suggestions if you look at them in, in order is resources to run mentoring programs that bring new people into the community or mentor people that are interested in getting involved in open source or people that are wanting to take over a maintenance of a project or something like that. 
Discover drupal program, really great program really have nothing bad to say about it except for that it's not happening this year and it's not really a bad. 
It's that the, the public announcement was we're taking some time to regroup to rethink things. 
One of the people that was involved in running it Vaughn has moved on to a new job, which is a loss to the drupal Association and that program. 
But you know, people, people can change and people can go get new jobs that are exciting to them that's allowed. 
But you know, that program has been life changing for a handful of people and it would be great to be able to say it was life changing for more people. 
I agree 100%. So you know, let's, uh, make some noise about that. 
I guess we are doing it right now. 

[32:20] I wi, I wish I had something to add but I, you know, I, it's a great program, you know, I, I, I'm baffled as to why it's been radio silence for a few months now on what the future of that program is. 
And I can only hope that there is a frenzy of activity going on that you and I are both just unaware of. 

[32:44] All right. I think we're the last one. So my last one and this one, you know, this is one that II I tell a lot of people about, but I have done absolutely nothing about it other than rant every now and then. 
So it worries me. Well, before I even tell you what the wish, let's go back to something like the quick edit module. 
Remember quick edit, I believe that was drupal eight. 
When quick edit came out, it was a, it was a core module. I don't remember if it was enabled or disabled by default. 
Just experimental was experimental at the time, it became a full module at some point. 
It left experimental stage. But what it allowed and there was a, the reason I'm bringing this up because there was a lot of effort put into making quick edit work. 
Well, and the idea was that you could from the front end of your website, from the public facing side of a website, you can click a little pencil icon on just one field of your content and edit that particular field and only that field with this cool little javascript floating, you know, form widget right there on the public side of your website, hit a button and boom, it would save. 
So you would never really leave the public side of your website to go to a full on node, add, edit page. 
You would just be quickly editing fields directly in the front end of your website. 

[34:13] Where is quick at it now, it's gone, it's been removed from core. There was a lot of, A lot of effort put into that and it's gone. I fear the same thing could potentially happen with two very large strategic initiatives in the drupal community right now. 
Those being project browser and automatic updates, they are both wonderful and they are, they, you know, they're not out fully yet, but from what I've seen, they work as advertised, there's still some security things that have to be finished up with both of them to make sure it's completely secured end to end. 

[34:51] But for the three of us, we won't be using either of these because for the most part, they're not made for developers. 
They're not made for folks who use Git and Composer every day. 
These tools are made for someone who wants a drupal site, doesn't necessarily use the command line, wants to put it on their host somewhere and have that site stay updated with security updates or be able to hit a button and add the redirect module without having to, you know, go to the command line and possibly even gasp, I know do it directly on their production site. 
Yeah. Gasp. Gasp that for me. 
So my third wish is I think for project browser and automatic updates to really succeed, there needs to be let's just start with one, low cost hosting provider that embraces project browser and automatic updates and basically says you want a drupal 10 site host here. 
1520 bucks a month, whatever that number is, I have no idea. 

[36:00] You don't, you know, you don't get a DEV site, you don't get a, you know, will back your stuff up. 
But we fully support project browser and automatic updates. 
This is the place to come. If you just want a quick drupal website, it gets backed up. 
You can add modules, you're a site builder, you can do whatever you want and you're done and I can see that lowering the cost of support for them. 
You know, if you're just in drupal on a point and click, you don't have people uploading things to the wrong spot, wrong file extension, running that crazy composer thing. 
Otherwise, what has, you know, all this time that has been invested in these projects, both volunteer time as well as paid contributor time? 
I would I I just, it worries me that there is no plan for how these tools are really going to be leveraged to, you know, achieve these, these, the the wider goals of the drupal community, right? 
We want to bring more people in. How do we bring more people in? 
We need a lower cost entry or a simpler entry. Well, we have the tools for it. 
We just don't have the, the, the thing to put it all together. 
So I've mentioned this to, to folks in the drupal Association and, you know, folks behind project who are working on project browser and automatic updates, no one has really given me, you know, I, I don't think anyone's really thought about it that much yet. 

[37:23] But that's, that's my third wish when this seems like one of those things that, you know, it's for, you know, the people who aren't as technical, it kind of combats that drupal is for enterprise only sentiment that I've heard thrown around. 

[37:39] But we also kind of has that as a shadow if hosting companies say, well, it's, you know, only for enterprise. 
So it's gonna be $2 million a month to host this site. 
They're probably never gonna get this and we're probably not going to get that Groundswell that we need to carry on projects like project browser and automatic updates, right? Yeah. 
Ok. So this is your appeal. I get it. Yeah, I, you know, this, this is going to solve, you know, or it's going to achieve, I believe a bunch of goals that the community has verbalized over the past few years, right? 
We wanna make drupal easier to use. 
So OK, it's easier to use, but we still need some place to host it because, you know, you can't really use project browser and automatic updates on, you know, the big three drupal hosting platforms right now. 
And I would argue the big three drupal hosting platforms are not where you go for affordable hosting either, right? 

[38:37] There's not like a $25 a month plan. No, last time I checked. No. 
So I would love to see something like that in the next year to fully embrace these, these big beautiful drupal projects that, you know, so many people have been working their butts off on. 
Yeah, it makes me wonder if there's a blog post series in here somewhere like the uh you know, use project browser on blue host, right? 
That somebody could sit down and write and rack space and host gator. In one of those. 
It, it just seems like that this is an opportunity for a hosting company to get involved and be able to offer something that at first no one else is gonna be able to offer. So. 
All right. Anyway, that's it. That is our, our nine wishes. Three each. 
I, I, you know, thrilled that the two of you were available and, and made time to do this and I miss hanging out with you both on a biweekly basis. 
I think I, I see both of you about once, maybe twice a year, you know, in person, which is, which is kind of sad. 
But anyway, thanks for taking the time to, to come back and reminisce and hopefully we'll see you again on a future episode of the drupal podcast. 

[40:05] Thanks for listening to the drupal Easy Podcast. Don't forget to check out all of our long form drupal training courses at drupal easy.com and stay tuned for the next episode of the drupal Easy podcast. See you. 

[40:16] Music.