Podcast audio transcript

Intro

[0:00] Welcome to DrupalEasy Podcast episode number 234. My Name is Mike Anello,
and on today's podcast, will you have interviews with Jess Snyder all about Drupal nonprofits and returning guest Kaleem Clarkson to talk about Drupal event organizers.
Before we get to that, though, let me mention that we have a composer. Basics Online Workshop Coming up.
It's a split workshop over two days. It's seven total hours, so we'll do 1/2 day on Monday, July 20th and then the second half on Tuesday, July 21st.
So head over to DrupalEasy dot com slash composer Basics, where you can get all the details about what is covered in that workshop.
Which, by the way, includes some really cool examples,
including moving a site from the old Drupal Project Drupal composer template to the new Drupal Core recommended template,
as well as what to do when you have a conflict in your composer dot lock file Again, you can check that out at DrupalEasy dot com slash composer Basics,
already. Let's get going.

Jess Snyder Interview

[1:14] I'm here with Jess Snyder. Just how are you? I'm great. Hurry today.
Pretty good. So let me give the brief introduction and then ask you for the extended introduction show.

[1:27] I invited you on the show today because I became aware that you are one of the organizers of kind of like the Drupal Allnut nonprofit.
And I'm to use the word community, which, you might say, it's too big of a word.
Um, I know specifically you're one of the organizers of something called the nonprofit Drupal Chat or group of Nonprofit shop or some variation of those three words.
Yes, and I thought this might be a good opportunity to talk to you about Drupal and nonprofits and in general, as well as find out about what this, you know, Drupal chat for non profits is sure.
That's kind of my plan. That sounds like a good plan.
Before we get to that, though, let's find out a little bit about you, according to your group.
A lot award page you are, and I don't know if it's still accurate. If not, you're gonna have to update your Drupal That work Paige, a senior manager, Web systems for its either weather or W E. T. A. Because I think you told me that you work at a radio station?
Yes, it is. W E T A. Were the public broadcasting station for Washington, D. C.
Uh, PBS on television and classical music on the radio.

[2:38] All right, So you as a senior manager, websystems, that makes it sound like you are in charge of the Drupal site for W E T A.
Yes, it is a fancy, made up, non profit title.
That Yes, yes. I can't pay you in big bucks like you in fancy titles. Pretty much.
That's how that's how it works in nonprofit land.
Um, but yeah, I I am responsible for our Drupal sites. I do all of the back end work on them. I build them, I maintain them, Um, I keep them up and running.
Ah, I pretty much do everything but content. I can do content if I have to, but I don't like it.
Right. How did you get there? Like, how did what is your background in, You know, CS or some other background? Like, what was your kind of Drupal journey like, um, so my background is in medieval British history.
That is what my bachelor's degree is in.

[3:31] Uh, wh Yes. Employers. Of course it is. Um, you know, nonprofit.
Uh, nonprofit tech community is full of what we like to call accidental turkey's people who sort of fall into it because the non profit world is willing to let you learn as as you go along.
So w t A hired me for a really long time ago.
Um ah, with the understanding that I would learn html and I did and elect it.
So, uh, I didn't move around a little bit.
I started doing drew people for them in about 2007 with Drupal five, we moved the W e t a dot work website from a homegrown sam us to Drupal.
Um And then we moved that to Drupal seven in 2013 and I am currently working on moving it to Drupal eight, probably going to be Drupal nine before it gets launched. But that's where we are.
So along the way you are. It sounds like you're basically, you know, self top.

[4:36] Pretty much, yes. They sent me to a two day HTML class and a two day PHP close, and I have been taking trainings and such along the way and,
learning things have had a few really great mentors who have taught me all sorts of stuff a whole lot of trial and error.
But yeah, I've grown up with in Drupal, So at What point did you realize that there's this whole other group, or maybe the other group of this whole group of Drupal all folks who also worked with nonprofit sites?

[5:10] Oh, goodness. Early on, that was pretty early on.
I so, so far back. I couldn't even really remember. I've been organizing it that long, but I have been involved in it.
Um, pretty much from near the beginning, I would say, Yeah, I remember that.
Not from a nonprofit standpoint, but very early on when I started in Drew Paul, which is maybe only a year earlier than you are so somewhere the same for all intensive purposes about the same time, Um.

[5:42] It was on I had a couple of clients that were either library systems or organizations that help train librarians,
And, you know, from the very one of the very first community things I realized about Drupal was there is a whole group about, you know,
Drew pull for libraries or, you know, and then that this whole group of librarians who talked about what models to use withdrew Paul that are good for libraries and things like that.
So it sounds like from the very beginning, you were at least involved in that somewhat for non profits.
Yes, Yes, definitely. But the nonprofits group and I've been fortunate that I'm based in the D.
C. area here and there is a very large and vibrant Drupal community locally here that that I've been able to be involved with pretty much from the beginning.
Don't you have a pretty good You have a pretty good Drupal event every year as well.
We dio dio gonna look a little different this year.
But that God calm is ah hasn't been announced. That's definitely virtual.
Um, yes, I believe it's on the website. It's going to be virtual, and it's going to be in September this year because it was originally supposed to be the week after what Drupal Con Global moved to, and that would have been silly self.

[7:00] All right. So, like like just about every other Drupal event that I'm aware of in 2020 that one has gone virtual as well.

[7:07] All right, so let's talk about Drupal on non profits for a few minutes, Definitely.
And let's kind of give, like the very basics are there.
You know, what are some of the unique needs for nonprofit Drupal sites that you know?
We'll focus on the word unique that maybe not all Drupal sites? Um, you know, utilize.
That's actually really a hard question, because nonprofits are not like this monolithic entity.
Every non profit has a slightly different focus and slightly different needs, and they run the gamut from,
you know, they've got 1 to 1 or two permanent staff people Teoh being, you know, international multinational organizations with, you know, staffs of thousands.
So, you know, it's really hard to say.

[7:57] I would say that one of the things that makes nonprofits different is that we do tend to to manage our sites in house with in house staff.
Um, and so it's important, you know, we do. We don't have the funds necessarily to just sort of be able to hand it off to an agency to support.
Um, you know, I know I at w t. A. We're working with an agency to help us with our initial build of this Drupal eight site, and we hope to have an ongoing relationship with them going forwards.
But for the most part, once this thing is built on launch, it's going Teoh.

[8:38] Fall on me to maintain it. So as a nonprofit person, I need to be fully aware of how my site works from top to bottom.

[8:48] And be able to have a full understanding of it and be able to work in it and manipulated and potentially change it as it grows and changes.
And ours are my organizations needs grow and change over the life cycle of the site.
So I would say that is one thing that is, um, perhaps unique to nonprofits.
The other thing that is probably slightly more unique to nonprofits than other types of Drupal sites is integrations with third party providers particularly, um,
content relationship management systems.
E C R M's um, you know your your database of donors.
Uh, the website is a prime mechanism for developing that list.
Um, even if you're not running your donations specifically through the Drupal site and we don't use 1/3 party provider for the actual reason off the money,
Um, yeah, we do have numerous places on the site where people felt forms, and they give us their evil address, and we want that email address to go into our CRM so that we can then hit them up for money later.
Um, and that's a definitely, I think, a prime use case in the nonprofit world that is perhaps not quite as relevant, um, for, ah, not nonprofit site.

[10:11] So that seems like it's your using. Like I would assume something like Web form as a lead generation tool.
But then, upon submission, that data needs to flow into whatever back end systems, managing donors exactly exactly how to get it right. The first drug.

[10:28] Um, the other thing that struck me about what you just said was it seems like a big part of and I guess I'm sort of using air quotes here.
The big part of like the Drew People nonprofit community is less.
I should say less about the technology, but I was going to say it's a lot of it seems to be more about just kind of being like like minded support group, almost,
like your these folks who work for nonprofits, Um, who you almost have to be like a jack of all trades.
When it comes comes to your site, you have to know how to keep modules update how to keep core updated, how to add new features, how to train folks on adding content.
So just that aspect where it would seem like for a lot of folks who are managing a nonprofit drew pill site, they need to have a lot of hands and all of the cookie jars. That's a terrible analogy.

[11:27] It's a terrible analogy, but I I did get where you were going with that. And, yeah, I would say that's true.
I would say that the monthly calls that we hold that responded by M 10 which is the nonprofit technology network. I think that's what it stands for.
Um, they've used the acronym only for a very long time.
Um is a place for nonprofit staff and for agency folk who work with a lot of nonprofits to come together and share what's on their minds.
Share best practices if they've got a was sort of naughty problem there they're dealing with to find out if anybody else has dealt with that or you come up with a solution, um, to ask the question, they're afraid to ask anywhere else.
We like to think for a friendly year.
Um, but But yeah, that that's primarily what I think the community serves is a way off a sort of a virtual gathering place, because it can also be a bit lonely being a nonprofit stuff person.
Very often you're the only person in your organization who does what you dio, uh, for assorted reasons.
So is that monthly chat? Is that kind of a standalone thing? Or is there also like a slack channel where nonprofit folks gather?
So there are few places where we gather. There's the monthly chat.
Um, we have a channel on Drupal slack hashtag nonprofits.

[12:54] And then we also have, ah, an old school mailing list that has run through and 10 dot org's. You can find it at n t e n dot org's slash Drupal.

[13:06] Wow, old school man. It's technically an online forum. At this point. It's gone through a couple of generations, but it mainly functions as a mailing list.

[13:16] That's that's fine. That's fine. And then, um, I think we talked V or not been top, but we exchanged some emails where I incorrectly assumed you were part of one of the organizers of the Drupal, Alkon,
non or the Drupal Kind nonprofit summits that are held regularly.
But that's not actually the case, but I'm gonna assume it's the folks who are on the monthly chatter and the Slap Channel are generally the same group of folks that come to the Drupal con summits.
Yes, yes, so that the summit and you are not alone. Everybody always thinks I help organize the summit like I don't and I want to make sure that I give the people who do credit.
Um, it is organized by one of my fellow co moderators of that and 10 Drupal community.
Johanna Bates lived of collaborative um, and she has joined this year in organizing it with by a Clayton Dewey, who was also have Deaf collaborative, um, and Molly Burns.
Um, and the three of them are doing. Yeah, all of the work necessary to to put on what looks to be ah, really great event this year.
Well, you're doing I am doing some marketing. I I am a nonprofit summit organizer adjacent on and figure as long as I'm here, might as well talk about it a little bit because I'm certain I'm indep attendee, and I am very much looking forward to it.

[14:39] So is it just a bit like So how is the structure? Normally is a breakout groups or how was it organized?
So normally, it's a full day, um at where the panels and breakouts and plenty of time for networking and and all of that sort of stuff.
Um, and it's a really great way to be in the same room with people who are very smelly, sort of in your various specific, a small part of the Drupal community.
Because the community is massive and especially a Drupal content. It can be a bit difficulty to find your your like people.
Um and and it's just always also really great, because the panels or the presentations are very nonprofit focused,
in the Drupal larger Drupal con sessions Air great, but they tend to be more abstract and more about the code.
Um, whereas within the nonprofit summit, you get to see, like, real case studies of organizations like you doing things with the types of tools that you have access to on, and that's so, so, so helpful.

[15:49] Yeah, case studies are amazing, but they're so difficult to put a good one together.
Exactly. And I think because if you're trying to make a case study fit all of Drupal's, that's that's very, very difficult.
But if you're talking a case study about nonprofits and your audience is non profits, it's much easier Teoh to put that together.
Um, yeah, this year, because it's all virtual. It's all gonna be condensed down to two hours.
So long. Yes, yes. So it's it's going to be an intense dose of nonprofit summiting.
Um, but I've seen a draft of the schedule because I know people, and it is looking like it's going to be, ah, really, really good event.
The highlight of it is going to be a panel discussion about the life cycle of the Drupal site um, which hasn't mentioned earlier as a non profit stuff person.
I own my site. I, you know, I just born I take it all the way through until it is time for it to metamorphose into some other type of site.
Um, and it's really important for anybody working um, ed a nonprofit or with nonprofits to understand that life cycle.
Um, so I am very much looking forward to that part of the day.
But then they're also going to be some breakout sessions and lightning talks, and I think it's just gonna be a really good event.
Fantastic. So let me ask you, since you have been in this space for well over a decade.

[17:19] Which when I think about like myself being in Drupal for well over a decade, in some ways it seems like longer because it's been so long since I've really focused on anything else.
But then, you know, a decade since it's a significant portion of our lives self.
Anyway, I a right to time down too far down that rabbit hole.
Um, over time, do you think that.

[17:46] Drupal's use in non profit organizations has been fairly study,
or has hasn't gone up with, you know, Drupal 678 And, you know, and then maybe, like, break out a crystal ball and like, how you know, are we on the right?
Is Drupal on the right path for non profits.
I know there's a lot there. There is a lot there. Um, I would say that within nonprofits, use of Drupal is actually declining right now.
Um, Drupal. You know, I'm gonna ask why. Yes, and I'm about I am about to explain.
Um, Drupal eight brings with it.

[18:28] Um, really, Tripoli is a lot harder to get started on than any previous version of Drupal Husband.
It requires more. Resource is it requires more in depth technological skill, more programming knowledge.
It's just ah much different system than Drupal 765 have been,
um, it is a lot order for,
someone who is, you know, the only tech person in their shop to just sort of spin it up and play with it on DSI if it'll work and have, ah site that they can actually use as,
their organization's website.
Um, in for Drupal eight than it has been to do that. Similarly, for 76 it's just, um it's a lot harder.
I think that there are a lot of improvements that have come with Drupal eight.

[19:33] But I think that we do need to acknowledge that it is, Ah, much more complex system that requires really a lot more background knowledge to even get started on it.
Um, and a lot more resource is in terms of hosting um, and things like that.
And so I it hasn't Donna hasn't done a good job. Drupal isn't as an organization has not done a good job of.

[20:03] Making that learning curve less steep and making it more accessible for nonprofits, particularly smaller ones.
Um, who you have Justus complex needs as as the big guys.
But, um, don't necessarily have the manpower. The resource is to invest in the ramp up required to have a truly good functioning Drupal eight site.
Yeah, I think that is something that most of the community acknowledges,
that that is, that that's a weakness, you know, for the for Drew Paul, you know, for and whether you want oh, refer to Drupal when I say Drupal, I mean both the software and the community.
Um, it's a weakness, you know, that we're aware of and that, you know, I've seen documented that that is a priority for Drupal moving forward to make it easier for people to,
um, you know, to try out and to use and to get started with,
Um, but I don't think there's been any huge leaps in that area, right?
I think that, you know, there's a there's a lot of talk. There's some action, but there hasn't been any, like, huge leaps where someone in you know it.

[21:25] Some, like you, just describe someone who is the kind of the loan Wrangler for a Drew pulse site for a small nonprofit where you know, they're suddenly gonna completely change your tune and say, Oh, now this is easy to use.

[21:39] Yeah, you know, it makes me sad. I've been in Drupal for a very long time, as we've said,
Um, and I see these nonprofits who are, you know, have to choose, and a lot of them are going towards WordPress or other solutions that.

[21:55] Are not as good of a fit for their needs but.

[22:00] Don't require as wet as many.
Resource is our as intense A billed as a Drupal site needs.
Now, in general, what happens is that really becoming like the choice between.

[22:15] You know, a site, a Drupal eight site that's gonna cost more to implement versus some other CMS That's going to cost a lot less, but you're gonna have to give up a lot of features.
Is that where the decision is? Is landing.

[22:29] That's what it seems like to me. And I certainly can't speak for all of nonprofit land.

[22:34] But that that is from room when I'm hearing, um, particularly from the people I know at agencies who work with a lot of nonprofits who work not exclusively in Drupal drew who worked, you know, who have,
who work in WordPress, who working in other CMS is.

[22:52] What I'm hearing is that a lot of non profits are choosing, um, to go with Don't go the easier route.

[23:01] All right, well, let's let's turn this around a little bit of this a little bit, do my room, But that's OK.
It's reality. And we don't want, you know, um, so I want to ask you about, like, So what could be improved?
And I have this question and down moving forward. What would you know? Folks in the nonprofit sector like to see in, you know, Drupal 9.19 point 29.3 to make things easier for them, and it sounds like we already know what the 1st 1 is.
It needs to be, you know, more approachable, easier to test out, easier to get up and run in, um, you know, and I'm guessing, you know, some of that has to do with composer.
Some of that probably has to do with the fact that all the code is now object oriented.
Um, but what else? What else is there that maybe there's some low hanging fruit?
Yeah. I mean, and I agree that this is something that Drupal. Eliza community has been aware of, um, for a while and has been attempting to deal with not just for non profits, but generally, like the whole I umami. Um.

[24:07] Ah, demo so that you can at least you know, try it out, see what a sight might look like even if it's not your site.
Um, and there they the attempts that have been made to make just straight up installing Drupal a whole lot less complicated.
Um, you know, those are some very, very low hanging fruit.
Um, I think that as eight has gotten more mature,
um, then, as it's now even turning into nine if as long as there's not a drop in that maturity,
Um, I think that is also hopeful because I know for a very long time, if it with a nonprofit was going to.

[24:49] Go to Drupal eight that was coming with it,
you'd have to write a whole lot of custom code because they're just contribute, isn't there?
Um, you know it if we're gonna go back in the day. It reminded me very much of the Drupal six release where six came out, and great, you couldn't do anything with it because there was no there were no control modules.
Um, so I mean, there's always going to be special cases where you have to do custom always, Um, you know I'm in public media.
I have a lot of things that I need to do on my site that are very, very specific to public media, of integrating with PBS, integrating with NPR and only other sites that are going to do that.
Or are there not public media websites? So I don't expect there to be, um, you know, a huge Drupal community. Wait. Just waiting to build that for me.
Um, they have found people on earth in collaboration is wonderful. Um, but.

[25:46] When it's basics basic stuff requiring custom work that is a huge barrier.
So I think as long as contribute keeps up and core continues to move,
things in from contribute into core so that you really do have much more of a turnkey solution, I think that will help so much.
So what I'm hearing is that maybe the I don't know, this is a terrible way to say it or a great way to say it.
So I'm just gonna say it may be the worst is behind us, right? Because moving from 7 to 8 Yeah, not just not profits. It was a big shift for everybody.
Um, you know, pretty much all custom modules had to be rewritten.
Um, possibly re architected for Drupal eight.
Um, but with new semantic version and the fact that drew people nine is basically the same as Drupal 8.9 minus deprecation ins.

[26:50] Um, you know, combined that with the fact that you know we're building much better tools to upgrade modules way Talk to Ted Bowman.
A few episodes back about the project Update pot that basically automatically creates patches. Toe help modules go from Drupal A to Drupal nine.

[27:08] So maybe the worst of of it is behind us.
You know, we've done all this hard work, and we knew we were going to take a hit going from 7 to 8.
But now that we're you know now that nine ISO and, um, a lot of contributed modules are gonna be able to move, you know, release the Drupal nine version fairly again, relatively easily compared to past major Drupal,
releases, you know, maybe were were on the upslope.
We just don't really realize it yet because it's been so difficult for non profits the past few years moving to Drupal it. Is that a possibility?

[27:44] I think so. I think that the change in the risk the release cycle is a huge selling point.
I mean, I had to, uh my boss got an email about preparing for Drupal night, and we haven't even released on eight yet. And he's like, Oh, my God, are we going to have to rebuild the site again?
And I was like, No, no, this isn't Get this now going to be easy sailing from here on out because, you know, 8.9 is gonna be exactly the same as nine point.
Oh, and we just, you know, with just like a little bit kicking out and it'll be so it'll be fine.
We don't have to rebuild the site from scratch every four years anymore of, and that's that's huge.
That is a wonderful, wonderful thing because it allows nonprofits who are very budget conscious,
to be able to plan it out and, you know, rebuild the site when it makes sense for them, not because they have to, because the technology is no longer supported. So that's great.
Um, I think that the other thing that is very much it is good.
I think that all of these changes are very much in Drupals favor. I think the Drupal has a community, has a lot of work to do in terms of marketing, um, and letting people know that it's changed.

[28:56] Because I don't think that word is necessarily getting out.
Um, and and as long as Drupal maintains this reputation of being very, very, very difficult to start, um, that is going to be a huge barrier country.

[29:12] All right. I think that's a good It's kind of I don't say it's a negative place.
Leave it. But I think that's a good place to leave it, because it's almost like to call the action at the end of an article. It's a big green button.
Think don't don't.

[29:27] All right. Well, very good, Jess. Thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it.
I'm gonna guess and correct me if I'm wrong.
If there are folks listening to this who are involved with nonprofits who have not been involved in the Drupal non pop profit community, um would let me just ask you, what's the best first step?
Should they join the slack channel? Should they join the monthly chat? Like, what's the best first thing that they can do to kind of get plugged into like minded folks?
So probably the best first thing to do would be to go Teoh End 10 and T e. And that work slash Drupal, um, and sign up for the old school mailing list there.
Well, I am going right to the mailing list, but the reason why I'm doing that is because that is where we announced the monthly call every month.
Um, and so that's an easy way of getting notified.
When when it's happening. It's 1/3 Thursday of the month at one PM Eastern, 10 a.m. Pacific, whatever that works out to in your time zone.
Um, and the Colin details for that can always be found at n 10 dot org's slash Drupal slash notes, which is our collaborative note taking document where we record what we've talked about every month.
Um, and if you're curious, you can page back and I think it goes back to something ridiculous like 2012 or 2013.
Um, so you can go back in time?

[30:52] Um, but yeah, those were the two places that that I would say to go first. We do have the hashtag nonprofits channel on Drupal slack.
Was there dash in the No, it's all one word.
Um, and we do have a community page on Drupal dot org's, um, Drupal dot org's slash community slash nonprofits.
I want to say that's what it is.

[31:20] Yes, yes, That would be helpful. Thank you. We announced the call there as well.
Um, but, uh, I would say the starting place would would actually be he old school mailing list.
All right, so I'm gonna ask. I'm gonna ask The question that that first popped into my mind is this is this ah, mailing list we can get, like, a weekly digester.
You're gonna give you be bombarded with 40 emails a day from Yes, you can get either every email individually. You can get a daily digest, or you could get a weekly digest.
It's not. It's not crazy active. Well, it sounds like it's good for announcements.
It is very good for announcements. And it's also good if you have a question that is a little bit too complicated to put in a slack message.
It's very, you know, you can put it there and you'll. You'll reach all of the people in the community and somebody will write back. Might be me.
All right. Very good. Well, Jess, thanks again for your time.
Hopefully, we will run to each other in a future, you know, physical location at some point at some point 2021 later.
I can't imagine living in Washington D C right now is Ah is a whole lot of fun.
So, uh, yeah.

[32:36] Are you actually in the district? Are you outside? I am outside. I'm just across the river in Virginia, so I have a lot of friends in that area.
I spent a lot of time. Ah, when I went to college down south?
No, that's from the Northeast. And I would drive back and forth and I always stop halfway up my friends in D. C. And so I spent a lot of time.
Indecent. I absolutely love it. It's a great well other than like being in the car. Like if I you know.
Oh, yeah. Driving with BC. Oh, my God. I don't know how anybody like, lives there and commute by car and stays sane.
It's been great lately cause everybody's at home hopping over to work.
No, no, we we have been way have been home since mid march.
The Beltway traveling at full speed. Pretty much, yeah.

[33:29] All right before Okay, I can ask it. We can have a whole, like living in D C. Conversation. Let Z it's here, so thank you just very much for your time. Thank you.

[33:41] Before we get to my conversation with Clean Clarkson, let me tell you about Drupal Career online.
This is our flagship training program. It takes course over a period of 12 weeks, roughly 3/2 days a week, and the next semester begins August 31st.
Now this glass covers everything you need to become a professional. Drew people developer. We start off with composer, there's some get.
There's a lot of information architectures, site building, a week, amount of development, overconfident development, everything you need to build a strong foundation for building Drupal eight and nine sites.
If you want to learn more about it, we have a free information. Webinar. We do that three times over the roughly the next month, on July 22nd August 12th on August 26 so you can sign up for any of those for free.
Just head over to drew Polisi dot com slash d C o for Drupal career online.

Kaleem Clarkson Interview

[34:43] Kaleem Clarkson Welcome back to the DrupalEasy. Podcast. How are you?

[34:47] I'm doing well. I'm doing well. Thank you so much for having me.
Yeah, it's been almost a year and 1/2 since you were on talking about the same topic talking about the Drupal event organizers group, so figure it was a good opportunity to see what what you been up to.

[35:05] Yeah, I mean, just just surfing, Really? So from the waves, you know, just tryingto just trying to ride it out.
Are things so well organized that that you don't have to do anything anymore? It's just goes on its own is that it's not what I'm hearing.
Uh, I wish I had. Actually, there's this group of people that we've put together Are you know, a lot of people would probably recognize their names, so it's it's definitely, um.

[35:33] It's definitely kind of I don't want to say intimidating, but it's definitely a, uh ah, well well organized group of people.
Let's put it that way. Everybody runs camps, so everybody that meets deadlines. So it's it's been kind of, Ah, it's been great, actually worked with these groups of people. So yeah, so it's been about a year and 1/2.
Yeah, about a year and 1/2. So let's start off with just a little reminder for folks as to what the Drupal event organizers group does.

[36:02] Okay, where we are a group of international organizer's that basically provide resource is toe other event organizer's plain and simple.
About a year and 1/2 ago, I had this wild idea that maybe we should all get together occasionally and try to figure out, um, you know, come to some figure out how we could help each other. Really?
You know, I was I've been assisting and running Drupal Camp Atlanta now for a while and, you know, a lot of people were doing some great things, so that's that's kind of with a call to action came from.
So on the unofficial page Andrew plot orig one will have the link in the show notes for the event organizers group.
The goals that are listed are re sources and tools to help plan an event.
And from what I've gathered, I've kind of been, you know, fluttering around the edges of this group.
Um, but it sounds like,
in the past year, the group has managed to put together some.
Some document resource is as far as like, best practices and things like that, and it sounds like they're now starting to be some momentum towards some technical resource is as well. Can you tell us anything about that?

[37:15] Yeah, I guess. First, let me say that the big accomplishment since the year and 1/2 has done has has really been us organizing.
And I would have to say that that has been probably nine beef percent of what's been accomplished over the past year and 1/2.
What I mean by organizing is originally we were we just started hopping on zooms just as organizer is Just hop on zooms.
I mean, there was there's no first official thing.
But, you know, one of the things that I was have been very passionate about is like, Hey, you know, says event organizes were very responsible for a lot of, um, you know, contributors, first time experiences, and maybe we should be a working group.
So that was really on a lot of the work way all decided.
We put together a board of directors, um, and Then we wrote the charter that so that took a lot of time. It took almost, you know, 66 months. Probably.
You've been involved with these with these working groups. It's a lot of work to put together trying and thank you for your child, because you are not your charter, but the community Working group.
I believe you guys had a charter that we kind of used as an outline.
Yeah, those charters. I mean, they Yeah, it's hard. And it seemed until you're in the thick of it, it doesn't.
You don't really realize how important it is.

[38:40] It really you know, it's a document that is a public document that is the guiding principles for the group.

[38:49] Right? If you're ever, if you're trying, decide if you should do something.
And the group isn't sure. Did you go back to the charter and you say, Well, is this in our charter?
Is this something we you know, we decided long ago or maybe not so long ago that we want to, you know, have under our purview.
So these charter documents and the fact that they are that their public,
um there really important And they should take a lot of time because you really have to think about this stuff I'm out of very like I I could write, Okay, But I don't consider myself like a, you know, an unbelievable writer.
But let me tell you, like Avi is, he is really talented, and he just took the he took the reins. I mean, obviously we all had a lot of input.

[39:33] Um, and he's he's out of Mitt Camp and he's been elected as the vice president board. And, well, I guess you could get a little bit later.
Just so folks were listening. That's obvious. Schwab from Mackintosh.
Thank you. Sorry I d be kind of led the whole charge with taken ownership in with these, especially with these group of people on.
Do you experience is, too, When you have, um, individuals who are dedicated to a getting stuff done, you know, it it makes it so much easier. So we were we were meeting every other week.
Um, you know, just the leadership team and hammering out these different sections and just a mission statement. It's a one sentence missing statement with It was not a very easy thing to do.
Every word is important, every words important. And it was just that we got a lot of work to do. Still, it's a living document. So I would say that that's really are big accomplishment of 2020 was submitting the charter.

[40:31] Um, I'm sorry, 2019 was submitting the charter and then being able to submit that to Drees and the Drupal Association and to be able to be approved at, um,
you know, to be recognized and accepted as,
um, it's just a working group.
So the Drupal event organizes is an official working group.
Now, um and I don't know, maybe you could talk a little bit more About what?
You know what that means As far as being a working group because you've been part of one as well. But it was the biggest.
A big accomplishment seeming that we just started meeting about a year right before that.

[41:12] In my opinion, I thought it was I thought it was a very Drupal association was great. They listened to us right away.
I'm they. I mean, they obviously believe in it as well.
Well, it's It's the difference between an ad, a hot group in an official group, right? When you when? When That charter, you know, is written and everybody signs off on it.
Um, this group is now the official group of event organizers.
So, as you know, as the d a r. As other folks need information or have requests or are looking for, resource is about event organizing.

[41:50] This is where they go now. This is no. It is official that this is now under, you know, the group's purview.

[41:57] Yeah. Yeah. So now that you're seeing and I'm not trying, I don't get emotional on this call, Michael, not do that.
Lucky for you, it's only audio, Yes, but yeah, now that you kind of say I was it was.
And again I say this out of out of respect of everyone that's on the group Seeing everyone's faces and names of people that have gone to sessions and watched present over years and who are organizes themselves, it's it's,
It's a group that that as a beginner, like if you're thinking about creating an event,
right now in, MM,
you're in whatever area of the world.

[42:36] You know, you conjoined these calls with us.

[42:39] And you can now talk that any organizer who's been organizing maybe some bad camp organizer's has been organizing that thing for 10 years. Florida camp yourself.
I mean, instant resource is just by, you know, going online, going on the slack and then joining the meeting, and I just find them so powerful, you know?
Yeah, that was one of the primary goals that's actually listed is to establish that community of Organizer's yeah, to facilitate that, that information sharing.

[43:12] So, yeah, we became official working group with our with our board in in, um, last year at Supercar Camp, Sudan. It was announced.
And since then, um, really, what we've been trying to do was establish an official board, you know, like we we have kind of like a charter board of people that kind of like,
um that wrote the charter.
But then we kind of wanted to have a true official board that started in January.
You know, obviously, with changes in how the world has changed since then, it was really hard to get, like people, all of us together from around the world.
And that was the other thing. We really wanted to have a lot more representation from around the world.
You know, we didn't We don't want to be North American heavy on this on this organizes group, it's it's really critical that we have people from from different parts of the world, you know?

[44:11] So that was a really tough, tough thing. Was to be able to find some of those people. So we made some decisions where we, um, decided to expand the number of board members.
Um, and we extended a call and actually put the call ended last Monday. And there's a good amount of international people who are interested.
So So now we you know, definitely there's an opportunity for us to add, you know, to more people outside of North America and have this, you know, truly represent representative group.
The other thing that, you know, just for myself personally, as kind of the, you know, I'm ad hoc lead right now.
Like, you know, I had never really been a part of international teams in time zones. So, you know, for me, you know, you are kind of americanize the time, you know, switching over to UTC time and alternating meetings that we've decided to open.
You know, as far as all of our open meetings, we just decided last meeting is aboard.
That that we're gonna alternate the public meetings, um, on an and market all of these meetings on UTC time. Just like you know, the JUBAL association has been doing this well, so our next meeting will will do it. You know, 11.
Uh, you know, at 12 pm UTC and then at 12 a.m. T. C.

[45:29] Just so that there's opportunities for people to join on opposite ends of the time zones.
It's nice to to rotate the time, just so it's not always in the middle of the night, but just by the fact that you are surfacing the time in UTC, you're signaling to the community that we're not trying to make this us centric.
We're trying to make this worldwide thing, So we're not going to give you times in Eastern Time or Pacific time.
We're gonna give you T C and on and rotated between these two UTC times. I think that's an important, you know, an important, like a little thing that that means a lot.
And I didn't realize that I was. And I was like, Well, what matters? I mean, everyone has to use the time, buddy, regardless.

[46:12] Was baddie. Thank you, Daddy. Think you have to leave? It was baddie and an obvious. Well, he's I was like, Well, milk a lean, like, you know?
So it's about being educated always. I've always believed, like with any diversity inclusion initiatives, you just have to be willing to be educated, you know, um, on, basically, I got I got educating on something that simple could make such a big, big impact.
So let's talk about, um Well, we mention the board, and that's gonna be kind of like the leadership of the of the group, But there's also an advisory board.
So what role will the advisory board play are making? One of the things we talked about as a group, you know, it was really trying to figure out a way to have succession planning.
I think a lot of I think drew people.
We've all been kind of talking about it a lot.
Um, and hopefully it becomes more in the front of, you know, adding new new members to the Drupal community, but, like, who were going to be the next people that kind of take the reins and an advisory committees are great.

[47:07] Um, great places toe, begin those relationships.
You know, because you know, it's hard for someone to just jump in.
Who hasn't been to any meetings has really no contacts of what? The event.
I'm not saying that's not possible, but we kind of feel like there are times where people are really interested, But maybe they can't commit to all of the meetings. You know that.
You know, we're you know, we're probably gonna implement a requirement to be on the board.
I don't believe you say Yeah, but I believe a pocket, you know, going to implement that.
But so, yeah, the advisory board. We're really looking for people willing to commit, but, like, maybe they can't attend all the meetings, but they would, you know, attend some of these these meetings and provide us with some advice, you know, like,
especially, you know, maybe some of the event planners from over Jubal Europe. How they how they did that years ago.
Um, you know, so we just want as many opportunities for people to be involved.
Um, so we feel like the advisory board is perfect for this.
You see, the advisory board is kind of on ramp to the board.

[48:16] Yeah, I would. I would see it as an on ramp to the board. But in addition to that, like, send, people may just not want to be boardrooms just because they're never gonna end of that time.
You know, like you're a very busy person yourself. You're on another working group.
But, you know, I'm I'm not saying you specifically, but that's just an example. There are a lot of people that core or very busy kick commit who could give us a lot of great advice right now on and maybe those of people who manage other events.
I was side of Drupal that happened to be in the ducal community myself. I came from higher ed, so I did a lot of higher and conferences previously.
So, you know, there are people out there that we could definitely.

[48:57] You know, learn Trump. And that's what I would say that that's where. There.
All right, let's move away from the organizational side of this. And let's talk about kind of the boots on the ground stuff.

[49:10] So I'm aware of a couple of things that the group has done to help event organizers.
Um, so I do wanna I wanna see if you know I'm probably missing some stuff, but let's start with what you know.
It's kind of a big deal in Drupal dot org's This new drew pull event listing or database exists, and I don't know how many people actually know about it.
But if you go to Drupal without orig slash community slash events, there's a new, um, Drew pull event calendar and there's a lot happening behind the scenes with it.
So can you tell us a little bit about that and how that came about? Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, I have to give it up to, you know, early early during these these these calls.
You know, when we first started not very first call like, I remember people mentioning certain topics, and I believe my personal for a while about had had was very passionate about, you know, utilising,
you know, an event space that we can all I'm benefit from.
And it kind of evolved over time. And Rachel from the Drupal association has just done a magnificent job of hearing what we have to say.

[50:25] Um and and putting that going back to the Drupal association, putting that in the action and with Drupal account.
So if you don't know about Jupiter, Kalju cow is a place that you can go to see all of the Drupal events. All right.

[50:42] Now, the reason why most of us have used ripple cow in the past is because, well, you know, meet up events or was it was a community space was at events thought jubal dot award.

[50:53] That was on groups. Yeah, it was armed groups. And what they so genius Lee did. If you could remember his name, I can't remember the team's name that created you Pick out of that right now.
They just they just, you know, pulled pulled from an artist at speed and just made it, Made it digestible on and pretty exactly.
Um so So basically out of these conversations, what we talked about as we talked about data and you know, Davis King and we talked about.

[51:20] You know, um for some of you who do not know this, there's a whole bunch of benefits the joining the I'm the Drupal events, working group one of them or the slack.
And the first thing I joined again was this spreadsheet. Someone posted this spreadsheet.
The Drupal events spread shape, the jingle events spread. She it's a Google dog.
And I was just floor that this thing even exists existed like basically, I had all the dates of camps that were that were being planned and previous dates.
So, as an organizer, we all know you don't want to take someone else's date.
It was crazy that it was a Google shape it z literally crazy.
Oh, it's the best thing ever invented, and it lists like, No, it's, you know it is.
It is because I'm mad. That wasn't I'd already upset some people by moving the camp on gates.
But if you didn't have that, you know, you really were setting yourself up for failure and you just didn't know, you know.
So so basically. And where we're talking about the clarify, it's a spreadsheet that people somebody put together, that people can enter the dates of their camp in,
and they can also into the dates of when they're planning when it hasn't been amounts.

[52:36] Not only that, you can see the dates from the previous years. It's just like a running list based on date.
So you could look at OK Florida's gen. Generally in February's last January, you know, So that's not what's that mess with that you know, like you don't wanna.
So anyway, um, out of that discussion and and and what we're talking about, that's what this new website is.
Rachel had this idea of all of us creating a more, um, robust data collection system,
that would allow us to collect important statistics that was always like a real hop on topic for me.
Yes, the fact that we did not have a central clearing house of knowing how many people attended Drupal events in 2017 correct.

[53:23] I mean, how powerful was at them. How powerful is at number. So we just started working on it.
Rachel came to us with kind of her idea of fields we all have. Remember, we all had a huge opportunity to provide a lot of feedback on the type of fields. And it's look trust.
We all get it. It's gonna be very tough right now. It doesn't look great right now, but the idea is that we want to be able to have an A p I that people can tie into.
And maybe someone else will create something really awesome based off this, like they have done with group A cow.
Or, you know, maybe there's will be amazed, you know, Data analytics.
You know, um, chart that some of the association does based on, you know, because we talked about a lot of things. Like, for example, revenue was a number that we wanted, just necessarily like, how much revenue did you can't generate?
Um, just you know how many people attended? Like what we talked about earlier and also the camps and planning.

[54:18] You know, this is also an idea to help us market and promote events and that was where ah lot of the passion came from in the beginning.
It's like, you know, it would be great if we had a ah home website that shows upcoming events and features some of the keynote speakers.
And, you know, even with this system, we have an opportunity to put in when I call for proposals.
Are so like you know, the association's trying how promote all our events as well. So now they can just go into this and say, Oh, they have You know, these events have call for proposals that are now open.

[54:54] Well, forget about Forget about the D A. Would be great for people who want to speak at events toe.
Be able to pull the page on Drupal of that organ. See what events are currently have open calls.

[55:05] Michael didn't even think of that. There you go, so many great ones. The beauty of a strong information architecture. I hear that's the word on the street.
I have heard about this thing Harry about. So yeah, that's that's a really big goal of ours.
We hope that more camp. So if you listen, go right now to Drupal dot org's last community slash events and into events, we have to get a much data in.
This is possible as much date. It's not about how great it looks today. What's in there. It's about collected data so that if we ever want to pull, you know, if we need to market some things for sponsors and, you know, do some things. We all have some data that we can use together.
You know, there's a link right on the page that says, How do I add an event?
So if you are an event organizer, either current or past or future.

[55:56] Go to Drupal a little red slash community slash events and add your locator, your local, your virtual, your present, your future, your past events and let's get that data in so we can start doing cool things with it.
Yep, I agree. Thank you so much for that. And then the other thing. So we'll move from the database, I would say that that's really like, That's a really big thing. And again, kudos Drupal Association for listening.
Kudos for Rachel, for for him. And also Tim, I believe Tim has been helping out a lot with the development of this. So I'm from the Jupiter Decisions. Well, so thank you guys a lot.
And ladies, thank you so much. The other thing that we've kind of We've seen some some progress.
I'm a little a little more momentum. Is this this little Jubal event website started kit Now, because you don't know I still use God and close. You don't know what that is.
It's this old school thing from Drupal Seven that's called the conference Organized and distribution. Okay.
And I am so addicted to it because, you know, it worked for what I needed to do, but unfortunately, is no Drupal Elaboration.

[57:12] On. You know my development. Still say this site building for a name. And so therefore, it's like, Please, we really, really, really need this.
Um, this is this is the most, in my opinion, one of the most stressful things for any Drupal event.
I'm starting to think that you started the event organizers groups that you can get cod eight dot f or cod.
Mind out. Oh, now you know what, Michael? Listen, my Auntie, I I honestly believe that as long as we're all upfront with our motivations, this world could be a much on your absolutely correct pickle.
I started this group for one thing only.
And that is why in the world can we not Aziz as organizes? Look at some of these sites.
Why can we not come together and build this simple thing that we can just go ahead? And we also like that we Why can't we just do this? So, yes, you Absolutely. You busted.

[58:10] So yeah, this is my passion. What's the progress? Where is that?
Um what's the progress that at this point, not count it out over the website starter kit?
Yeah. So what's literally strange that is not the girl that is not the girl that really caught eight point.
Um, but more or less. Ah, starting kit is just a much better freeze, I think.
Now, Michael, don't you agree? Like just basically something that could help you get going.
So it seems like JD Leaded from Drupal and I see and and, um, Drupaly Europe the Drupal Europe donated their code, please, from when they had Drupaly Europe two years, three years ago.
Now pants flying. But, um so and that's based on Drupal away.
So what? What Janey decided to do was like, OK, well, let's let's look at this code and start updating.
So, you know, there's a desert Drupal eight version of of.

[59:09] An organizer website. I'm for events out there,
and you know, this is something you know, for me as soon as we kind of get through a so far as the board and get that situated that that's where I would like the devote.
My personal time is making sure weaken, get all of us together and figure out a way Teoh to build something that's Lego pieces that help Organizer's.
So is that Is that like a Drupal, that work project at this point? Or is that kind of just someone side project that they're working on on their own?
I don't believe it is not a Jew pulled out a word project yet it is not. It is on Get Hub.
I believe he has a post. The link is posted in the Events website Starter Kit Room in the Organizer slack.
But again, that's something that, like it's gonna take some leadership to get around in a team to get together, like you know, what do you call it?
You know, like, you know how many different basic models way talked about this before? My, you know, creating the M V P list of things and put it out there, you know, maybe even paying a company to actually work on, if that's possible.
Yeah, that was, You know, that was again. That was kind of always my thinking when I was involved in the calls last year was were one of the few, if not the only working group,
you know, this Drupal event organizer, working group with.

[1:00:34] You know, some type of access to financial resource is that's right.
You know, I was one of the organizers of Florida Drupal camp, but I should say, one of the one of the past Organizer's of Florida Drupal can't keep reminding myself of that.
Someday. Someday, Michael came with some that over the dream.

[1:00:54] But, you know, I I I was always more than willing to, you know, if there was an effort to pay someone to build out.
You know, maybe it's like the scheduling aspect of a website.
If other, if other camps wanted to go in on that, and I would be the 1st 1 to be talking toe to the other Florida Drupal of camp organizer saying We should do this.
We should give money and make this happen, and no one has has.
You know, every time we've mentioned this, not one organizer has really hesitated or not necessarily hesitated, but balked at that idea.
Yeah. This is a need like we're talking about. Is it needed them, You know, it's just gonna take Resource is in time. And I just think right now, we're not quite quite. We're out there. We're almost there, you know?
Yeah. I think it's gonna just take a flat bear. Someone's gonna have toe, you know, step up and say this is not my mission and, you know, do some p m ing on it. Do some marketing on it, do some fundraising on it.
Um, I think if once you know, one or two people kind of take the lead and start putting some time towards that, I think we will all be surprised at how quickly it happens.

[1:02:06] It's true because I mean, this happened pretty quickly to write within just a year.
So it's Remember Joeckel Moose slow sometimes. But do blossom is very fast.
Well, I think I think that's all on my list that I wanted to cover. Did we miss anything?

[1:02:23] I know, I'm We will be solidifying on board. We have a board meeting on July 14th.
Drupal calm week. Very brave of you. Yes. Select. Select our final final board members because they nomination periods over and we'll be doing um I'm not sure I assume how quickly this will be posted.
Will also be doing a lot of talks during Jew pecans and just, you know, look out for blood Post coming out about all of the different, you know, talks that were involved in a Drupal. Come.

[1:02:57] All right. So if you are an event organizer of any kind.

[1:03:03] In the Drupal of community and you're not involved in this event. Organizers group Definitely go to Drupal out orig slash community slash oh, I lost it.
Uh slash event Dash organizer's slash community slash event Dash Organizer's There's all kinds information there about the zoom calls about the dedicated slack instance.
There's an email newsletter. There's issue, too, but, um, if you're not involved with it, then you're missing out.
And it's more than just your missing out on another volunteer opportunity.
Which event organizers usually are already volunteering a lot, but it's an opportunity toe, you know, hopefully, um.

[1:03:48] Be able to streamline your process to make it easier for yourself and other event organizers.
So definitely check that out cream.
I have my main question for you. And really, the the reason I had you on the podcast is how on earth are you going to do karaoke E during Drew Pecan Global?
Jeez, I don't know. I don't know how that you have agreed to set up in your room.
I mean, I do have a dream speech, but there's something about the camera and the people.
I mean, if if JD friend figures it out I'm pretty sure he's thinking about it, you know, because he's usually the Drupal.
Think he's got the Drew Carey? Okay, handle Twitter.
Um, I'll participate. I don't see why I know what is currently or go Teoh carry a piece off poo?
Yeah. I mean, you have you have you have you have to have a list. Have you have to go to, like, you know, short notice clean? Get up there.

[1:04:45] I mean, I'm so I think I'm still on Bon Jovi, right? Hockey? Didn't you know? I mean it just everyone loves it. Za tar not to do it.
It's evergreen. It will never go out of style. No livin on a prayer or bad medicine. What we What we doing?

[1:05:01] Yeah, I living on a prayer was pretty good. Living on a prayer is pretty good. What's the other? Lets you have a big when he's got.

[1:05:08] Bad medicine. There's usually t two or the the cowboy one. What's the cowboy one?

[1:05:16] I'm a cowboy on a steel. You're not going todo wanted dead or alive. Is that wanted dead or alive?

[1:05:26] I can look us. We're here. We go, Here we go.
I got, uh, Yeah, we have living on a prayer. We got college.
Wanted dead or alive Wanted dead or alive. That's it. All right, man, guess what I'll be listening to tonight.
What's that? Bon Jovi Can't you know, how do I not medicine Kings of Leon right now too. And we just saying it so has been pretty farm.
All right. Fantastic. Well, queen always great catching up with you. I'm sure I will run into you in a in a hoppin room.
Next is it next week? Next.
Holy kind of Check out the Drupal's initiatives. He no session. I'll be one of the people talking about all the cool initiatives, so don't forget about it.
And do you want to Ah, perhaps mention maybe on the off chance Drew camp Atlanta. Oh, Drupal camp. Earlier. Cough opposes. Open. Get him in.
Get him in with donating the three different causes. Um, we're excited to go virtual. We've done it before.
One of the yogis of it. We used to run this thing called minicamp on mine. So it's something you have done before us. A Come on, sign up.
And when is Drupalping camp Atlanta while you caught me on that one?

[1:06:42] Is it september 10th and 11th? Is that Yes, it's tempting loving 2027. Yes.
Fantastic. So what is that? That's that It's July.
So So two months. Did you better get get on the ball? You better get that thing organized, my friend. Yeah.
All right. We're booked 21 twos. Oversight. All right.
Fantastic. All right. Clean. Always great. Talking to you are also have a great rest of your day and we'll catch you soon.
Awesome. Thank you. Thank you for having me.

[1:07:16] Thank you very much to both of our guests. Just Snyder and Clean Clarkson. Before I let you go, let me quickly mention our to our professional local development with Dev Online Workshop.
Now, this is where you can learn the fundamentals of d Dev to get up and running on this modern doctor based local stack development environment.
Our next two workshops. With this, we're gonna be Tuesday, September 8th, as well as Tuesday, November 10th.
And you can get more information and sign up for either of those at DrupalEasy e dot com slash d dev, That's DrupalEasy e dot com slash d dev.
Thanks for tuning in and we'll see on the next Drew Polisi podcast.